Talk:Heb 11:1-40

Faith and assurance

I think this verse is often misread to mean that faith is based on evidence and complements a misreading of Alma 32 that takes a rather scientific view of faith. On this view, we are given small bits of evidence or assurances of what we believe which increase the basis we have for our belief. Like I said, I think this is a misreading, but I'm not quite sure how to read this passage correctly.

One point that seems important to me is to think of faith more as a gift rather as something we exert. I think the word "assurance" points in this direction, because it seems a bit awkward or even silly to say that what we exert is also what assures us. But if God gives us faith, then this seems quite natural: God gives us assurance, and this assurance takes on (or can take on) the form of faith, or is tantamount to faith. But how might this reading line up with Alma 32? The process in described in Alma 32:28-29, where the seed swells, is said to increase our faith. This wording, it seems to me, is incommensurate with equating assurance with faith as I've just suggested Hebrews 11:1 means. (I'm ignoring the word "evidence" in Heb 11:1 for now b/c I think it just confuses things, but I think is largely the basis for the misreading I described in the first paragraph above since "evidence" is such a common scientific-laden term; the NRSV uses the word "conviction," but I digress....) The reason I see for this incommensurability is that when Alma says that the enlarging of the seed will increase our faith, then it seems faith is something different than the assurance provided in the swelling of the seed. In other words, I take Alma to be saying that the assurance (in this case, the swelling of the seed) will increase our faith, whereas in Hebrews the writer seems to be saying that the assurance (in this case, of things hoped for...) is faith.

This is hard for me to think about, which is largely why I'm asking for help. I keep feeling like this is the same "raising yourself by your own bootstraps" problem that comes up so often in philosophy (at least this is how Terry Warner would phrase a whole group of problems in philosophy...). I should also add that I'm thinking about this largely as a result of some recent discussion of Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling" here at the Reading Abraham Seminar (esp. the thread I linked to). Also, Joe has been arguing that Hebrews 12 was quite foundational to Joseph Smith's thinking, and the proximity of this chapter to that chapter suggests that this chapter may also have been quite important in terms of Joseph Smith's thinking. (I also keep meaning to try and figure out which lectures in the Lectures on Faith Joseph was likely to have written, since I think that, for better or worse, those lectures have done a lot to shape the way that faith is viewed by Mormons, and I think that the ones that Joseph wrote are at least marginally relevant to how we should read Alma 32....)

--RobertC 16:33, 18 May 2007 (CEST)

Robert, I'd be interested in taking up this verse in some detail with you in the commentary (Greek word by Greek word, preferably) if you are interested. I think it has rich possibilities, though I confess I'm still befuddled by it for the most part. I agree with you that it plays a foundational role in making sense of Hebrews 12 as well. And I think it would be worth taking up. --Joe Spencer 15:45, 21 May 2007 (CEST)

Cool. I'm going to try and work through at least some of the subsequent verses to see how verse 1 is clarified via the examples of faith given. --RobertC 01:02, 22 May 2007 (CEST)