Talk:2 Ne 32:1-9

I'd like to understand how the phrase "tongue of angels" is used in the early church or more widely in New England at the time the Book of Mormon was brought forth. I think that may shed some light on what this phrase meant. --Matthew Faulconer 06:13, 12 Jul 2006 (UTC)

Matthew, I posted some commentary on 2 Ne 31:13, but I think you are right that there should be some fruitful discovery were on to pursue this course. I wonder if anything like that has been researched yet? It might also be worth looking into intertestamental literature. --Joe Spencer 15:10, 12 Jul 2006 (UTC)

Given that Nephi quoted Isaiah so much and tongue seems to be a pretty significant term in Isaiah, I would think that should figure into the discussion/research too.... --RobertC 16:25, 12 Jul 2006 (UTC)

Just to echo that last point: not only is it important in Isaiah, it is precisely what seems to me to be key to interpretation of this phrase (see the comments I posted at 2 Ne 31:13). --Joe Spencer 23:34, 12 Jul 2006 (UTC)

Plainness & Difficulty/Nephi & Isaiah

Robert, I think you are looking at a wonderful question here, though I must admit I think the discussion in the blog is too far afield to engage the issue very meaningfully. Perhaps this is so because Nephi is doing a great deal more than saying that Isaiah is difficult and he speaks in plainness. 2 Nephi 25 is a very complex chapter to work through. I will have to go there and work out some commentary to see if I can't make this clearer, but the issue is far more complicated than we usually want to let on. For example, the intertwining roles of Nephi and Isaiah in 1/2 Nephi are really difficult. Nephi quotes Isaiah 2-14, 29, and 48-51. But the quotations fall into a rather important pattern: the "Isaiah chapters" (2-14) are at the center of the 2 Nephi 6-30 stretch (what I have called elsewhere the "atonement" stretch), which is marked by the visitation of three messengers bringing further light and knowledge concerning the possibility of a Nephite/Lamanite reconciliation. Surrounding Isaiah are the words, on one side, of Jacob and, on the other side, of Nephi, both of which offer commentaries on Isaiah: Jacob works through Isaiah 50-51, and Nephi works through Isaiah 29. That atonement stretch is one gigantic exploration of the role and meaning of Isaiah (chapter 25 of 2 Nephi cannot be read apart from 2 Nephi 6-30). Moreover, there are two Isaiah chapters in 1 Nephi, chapters 48-49 of Isaiah. Those two set up a sort of continuum with 2 Nephi 7-8, Jacob's quotation of Isaiah 50-51, and then with Abinadi's working out of Isaiah 52-53, and finally with Christ's full-blown quotation of Isaiah 54 and hints of Isaiah 55. Isaiah 48-55 are quoted in order in the Book of Mormon, and they collectively form a sort of backbone for the whole of the Nephite history (fascinating that scholars believe "Second Isaiah" to be a single poem used for the ritual text during certain Day of Atonement celebrations). In other words, the continuity suggested by the chapters taken from "Second Isaiah" disrupt the Isaiah interpretation at work in 2 Nephi 6-30, diverting it towards a larger covenantal history. In the end, there are two Nehite interpretations of Isaiah, and they "distract" one another (I'm using "distract" as Marion does in God Without Being).

All of this said, Nephi's relation to Isaiah is far too complex to summarize as his simply thinking Isaiah was hard and his own writings plain. I think Nephi's giving up here in 2 Nephi 32 is not so much his not being allowed to be so plain, but his realization that even HE was too obscure. In an attempt to make things plain, he failed. It must be recognized that Nephi is writing to his own people, and not to those in the "Latter-days." He fails at communicating them. And he fails so profoundly that most of his themes are completely left off until Christ comes to the Nephites and takes those themes up again (the two most important ones are the Abrahamic covenant and the trinity). A start, anyway. --Joe Spencer 16:19, 28 Sep 2006 (UTC)