Talk:D&C 89:1-3

overweight

Hi 65.216.70.186, I removed part of your question related to being overweight and the Word of Wisdom. I did this to eliminate what some might interpret as a criticism against some members of the church. Hopefully this revision focuses the question more on the scriptures themselves. Note that my reason for removing the part of the question that seemed to critizice members of the church who misread the Word of Wisdom and use it to falsely judge others is not that I disagree with your claim, but rather, simply that I think we are best off by focusing on the scriptures themselves. --Matthew Faulconer 16:13, 10 Aug 2005 (CEST)

I disagree but I won't press the issue. I didn't realize until just now that these pages only cover 5 verses... when I clicked on D&C and on 'section 89', i thought I was heading to a page about the whole section... this should be changed somehow, preferably by having another list come up when I click on 'section 89'. I'm not even sure now how I'm going to get to the page one of my questions was moved to...

Just click on the link that says "Next" and the next portion of the section will come up. Eric 22:48, 10 Aug 2005 (CEST)

I agree that the Next Previous links are confusing--especially for those who get to the scriptures by drilling down through the links (e.g. clicking "Doctrine and Covenants" then "Section 89.") There is an enhancement on the queue to add a page with verse links (e.g. 1-5, 6-10) for each chapter/section so that users don't have to click Next, Next, Next, Next to get verse 26. I haven't gotten around to implementing that. In the meantime the easiest way to get to a specific verse is to type its reference (e.g. D&C 89:14) in the search box. I hope this helps. --Matthew Faulconer 07:05, 11 Aug 2005 (CEST)

On the question, "Is it a sin to be overweight?" (Note for full disclosure: I am very significantly overweight myself, and it ain't glandular.) Being overweight is a condition: righteousness is about behavior (including behavior of thought). This condition results from some combination of many factors, not all of which are understood. In most of us, though, overweight results from patterns of behavior which are unrighteous, or at least suboptimal. One such cause is gluttony, to use an old word, which seems to me to be tied in with selfishness and ingratitude. In food, as with other things, the notion seems to be that the Lord gives us things which he expects us to use in the right way and in appropriate amounts and balance. --Rpederse 12:38, 17 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a fascinating topic. I do think there that sometimes—but not all the time—there are changeable behaviors associated with being overweight that are related to righteousness. But I think gluttony is the smaller issue compared to the larger issues that it is often used to symbolize. (For example, the gluttony depicted in Isa 28:1ff, though I'm sure there are much better scriptural examples....) Also, I think it interesting that gluttony is a sin that often has visible side effects (e.g. obesity), whereas the sins more frequently and vehemently condemned in the scriptures do not have as effects that are as obvious to others. These are definitely topics I'd like to explore more.... --RobertC 09:34, 18 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this today, and feel (as I often do) that I'm seeing the shadow of an important principle out of the corner of my eye. It seems to be that there's a principle of "Take enough, but not more than enough" that lies behind many of the commandments. When the Lord blesses us with food, we're welcome to partake, and do so joyfully. Over-partaking, though, smacks of gluttony and greed. We're not asked to be entirely unconcerned about our appearance: it's desirable to be "neat and comely", but "costly apparel" often indicates avarice and pride. Within the bounds the Lord has set, sexuality is an appropriate expression of love, without the taint of sin some faiths ascribe to any sexual act. The righteous seeking of knowledge and wisdom can become the damning greed of a Faust or the spiritual blindness resulting from "looking beyond the mark" for "things they could not understand." (Jacob 4:14) Even our holiest desires can go out of bounds: Alma desires to preach the gospel with mighty power (Alma 29:1-2), but understands "but behold...I do sin in my wish." In many things, we're learning to take what we need, and be content with only what we need.--Rpederse 02:00, 19 Oct 2006 (UTC)

easier to follow?

I'm wondering about the last paragraph in the exegesis about the WoW being easier than some commandments b/c we can see the direct benefit ("if we eat right ... we're healthier"). Maybe I think the comment just needs a little rewording so it's more neutral in tone or less strong in its claim. After all, in many cultures tea is very common and considered very healthy--for new converts in these areas, the WoW is sometimes one of the hardest commandments to follow precisely b/c the health benefits are not obvious.... --Robert C. 19:13, 13 Aug 2005 (CEST)

I don't think it's saying that it's easy to follow, just that it's easier to see the benefits. I suppose one could argue the point to some extent, though, since moderate use of coffee and tea are close to harmless, and extremely limited use of alcohol might even be beneficial. This is getting off-topic, but I think it's too bad that the alcohol/tobacco/coffee thing receives so much attention in the Church, while we don't talk very much about limiting meat and emphasizing grains, which definitely would be healthy. I wouldn't say it's against the WoW per se to be overweight, but we collectively would be healthy to take all of the WoW more seriously. Off my soapbox for now ... Eric 05:45, 14 Aug 2005 (CEST)

Verse 3 suggests that it's easy in at least some senses. I think of what one might call the "temple recommend aspects" of the revelation are easy in a couple of senses. First, for most people, those things may be hard to achieve initially but not really be an issue afterwards. On some summer days, the sweetened teas people drink in this area look really good -- I'm a convert, and know the taste -- but it's sure not something I struggle with. Holding back irritation at the 98th interruption by my clerical person is MUCH harder.

Also, there's a straightforwardness about these principles. Learning full and complete honesty involves moving through layers of understanding, and is taking me decades. So the question "Am I honest?" is a little hard to answer, but "Do I drink alchoholic beverages?" is easy -- it's possible to be perfect in that thing. --Rpederse 01:12, 19 Oct 2006 (UTC)

a direction?

Okay, all of this sudden attention here at D&C 89 has got me excited to bury myself here for a bit (I can't seem to keep on any one project lately, but oh well). So I'll begin to post some thoughts here, even as I maintain (for a short while I'm sure) my work on the remnant and its implications for the Book of Mormon. Anyone game to join in? --Joe Spencer 13:37, 18 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I really have this same problem--"I can't seem to keep on any one project lately." Thoug in my case I don't think it just affects me lately. On the other hand, it is kind of nice to come back to a half-finished discussion several months later and take it up again. Anyway, in this case, I'm happy to join in, if I end up with anything to say. I like what you wrote up. One side question: I look at how many parts of the scriptures point to the temple and am surprised. In each instance it does seem to point to the temple. Taken as a whole I wonder if: a) really the temple is all over writings of the scriptures or b) we are biased toward interpretting the scriptures in relation to the temple because the temple is so important to us. I have thought about this mainly in related to Alma 13:1-5. I never would have guessed that was related to the temple but now the relationship seems so obvious (I think Rob Fergus was the one to suggest it). --Matthew Faulconer 14:27, 18 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Matthew, I've almost come to think that we can't understand the scriptures at all without an understanding of temple worship. Since most members don't talk about temple symbols or worship outside of the temple, its hard to know exactly how many members also see the importance of the temple in understanding the scriptures, or how much temple imagery they find there. Fascinating question. Would love to hear other perspectives on this.--Rob Fergus 18:05, 18 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with Rob on this point. Perhaps it's a consequence of reading Nibley's work, but I can't read anything in the scriptures without turning rather quickly to the temple. The temple is the center of everything, it is the ordinance that orders the gods, and it runs through every moment and thought I find in the scriptures. So I totally agree that "I've almost come to think that we can't understand the scriptures at all without an understanding of temple worship." Anyway, I think we have to bury ourselves in that question of all questions. --Joe Spencer 20:49, 18 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I'm hoping to see lots of commentary tying scripture passages to the temple—not having read all that much Nibley (or Margaret Barker), I think I'm less inclined to read this way. So please use me as an excuse to comment on what might seem painfully obvious to you. --RobertC 00:43, 19 Oct 2006 (UTC)