Talk:Alma 14:11-15

Exegesis

Elements Prefiguring Christ

I brought the following paragraph here because I have a question and a suggested revision.

Several elements in this narrative prefigure Christ's trial, execution, and resurrection in the New Testament Gospels. They include the chief judge "smote them with his hand upon their cheeks" (v14), being mocked by suggesting they use God's power to save themselves, being forced them to witness the suffering of others, and their period of grief and silence that lasts three days (v18) prior to their dramatic deliverance from the prison, symbolic of triumph over death.

• My question is what moment you have in mind from Christ's atonement where he was forced to witness the suffering of others? Perhaps you mean in performing the atonement he saw our suffering, or that he was crucified with two thieves, or do you mean Peter cutting off Malchus' ear?
• Regarding their three days in prison (v18), v22-23 make it clear that they spent much more than three days in prison before being delivered. That being said, I do think their dramatic deliverance from prison is reminiscent of the resurrection.

--Mike Berkey 20:03, 24 June 2011 (CEST)

I did not write this paragraph, but I like both the original reading and the questions that follow. I find comparisons with Christ within this chapter both plentiful and yet problematic. When was Christ forced to witness suffering? This is a great question. I suppose from the time that he was born. He witnessed more suffering than any of us ever could since his earthly mission was the ultimate mission of healing. Perhaps then Alma 14:10-11 was how Christ felt on a daily basis? Of course, I have no idea if this is true, I am just thinking off the top of my head here. --Kirk Caudle

I feel like the line about being forced to witness suffering weakens the point. There's no direct parallel in mind. Pretty much whenever Christ did witness suffering, he alleviated it, unlike Alma and Amulek. And also, there's a bit of a difference between witnessing suffering and being forced to witness suffering as Alma and Amulek are here. I think a closer comparison would be to 2 Kgs 25:7 where Zedekiah is forced to watch his sons be murdered. --Mike Berkey

Burning the believers

I think the wiki is a better place for this kind of discussion than the blog, so here's a re-post from the blog.

There’s no mention of Alma or Amulek saying or doing anything in v1-9. This is mainly a picture of the people’s reaction to their preaching, and what a reaction! Those that repent immediately turn to the scriptures (but aren’t baptized, which I’m still wondering about). The reaction of the unrepentant is incoherent. They think about killing them, but change their mind and instead bring them to court. Zeezrom tries to defend them so they turn on him, kick him and the rest of the believing men out and burn the women and children. Like, where did that come from? I thought Alma and Amulek were on trial.

I’ve tried to develop a model in which this reaction might make a bit more sense. I’ve based it on Alma 8:17. In that scripture Alma has turned his back on Ammonihah, but an angel has sent him back with a specific mission to warn them that if they don’t repent they’ll be destroyed. But in v17 the angel kind of gives a reason why Ammonihah is in so much trouble. He says that even at this moment they’re plotting to destroy the liberty of the Nephites. This is the only justification I’ve found (before Alma 14 that is) for the Lord’s intent to destroy Ammonihah.

This is the situation in Ammonihah when Alma and Amulek are preaching. The people are on the verge of some kind of revolt to gain power over the rest of the Nephites. This would explain their focus on power that Kim has pointed out. Burning the believers and their records is a way of exerting their power over Alma and Amulek, putting them in their place. “Don’t tell us that we’ll be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone. Anyone you convert, we’ll cast into fire and brimstone. We’ll make you watch on, helpless and powerless to save them!” These guys have an intense desire for power and it’s kind of terrifying what it drives them to do.

--Mike Berkey 03:36, 28 June 2011 (CEST)