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| − | Robert, take a look at [[Moro 7:7]] for the negative version. I've been very interested in this same question before, but you've opened a new aspect of it all by drawing the justice/mercy business into it through D&C 98. I'd like to discuss this at some further length. --[[User:Joe Spencer|Joe Spencer]] 16:01, 11 Nov 2006 (UTC)
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| − | :Thanks a lot Joe, that's a great reference I hadn't thought of. Interesting that ''intent'' is such a key idea there, as it is throughout the BOM's discussion of the law of Moses (and the OT prophets' discussion of sacrifice and offerings...).
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| − | :More generally, I'm trying to think about the plan of salvation in pre-Law-of-Moses terms. One idea is that ''justice'' is a term that is used after the Law of Moses to help explain the Plan rather than something that is an eternal law or principle (I think the only hint at an "eternal law" in scripture is [[D&C 130:21]]-22, and I don't think it's talking about justice per se there...). I'm also trying to think about God's statement in [[Abr 3:25]] from this perspective--it seems that call-and-response is key to understanding what is most essential (I don't like using the word ''essential'' but can't think of anything better right now) about the plan of salvation. This call-response view highlights the Hebrew meaning of "belief" (''amn'' in the "amen" sense) here in verse 6: it seems Abraham is being praised precisely b/c he is repeating/confirming (saying amen) to what God has promised. This, I think, is an essential covenantal feature--not only a willingness to sacrifice everything, but a trusting of (saying amen to) the other's promise. God offered Abraham an unconditional promise before Abraham had proven his unconditional loyalty (this dialectical development of the covenant is where I think Alma 32 sheds interesting light...), just as Abraham believed that God would fulfill his promise. This relational-, covenant-based (rather than law-based) view of God and Abraham's relationship suggests a mutual willingness to completely respond to each other (rather than any other desire/attachment), a willingness that is made fully manifest by the Father's sacrificing his Son and Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son (perhaps Abraham is not required to carry this out b/c the Father knows Abraham's thoughts, but the Father must carry it out b/c Abraham doesn't know the Father's thoughts?).
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| − | :Hmmm, none of this really very coherent yet, but I think I'm moving closer to something.... --[[User:RobertC|RobertC]] 22:35, 11 Nov 2006 (UTC)
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| − | ::Good thoughts. This call-response approach seems both so foreign and so familiar at the same time. Breath-taking and elegant.--[[User:Rob Fergus|Rob Fergus]] 04:57, 12 Nov 2006 (UTC)
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| − | :Not coherent? You have the foundation here for a paper worth working out for that book, I think. There is something very profound in your comments. I especially enjoy the quickening of the word "amen" you have performed. If I can push you along in this direction, let me. --[[User:Joe Spencer|Joe Spencer]] 21:02, 12 Nov 2006 (UTC)
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| − | ==Sign-seeking==
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| − | You have been listening to my seminary lessons, Robert? That really struck me while we worked through Genesis 15 during class. I'm not sure what to make of it. I want to look at this as a theme in the scriptures: where else does this kind of sign-seeking appear? I can't help but think of the temple, but the scriptures seem to have reference to this kind of thing also: the Ahaz thing is an example. Hmm.... --[[User:Joe Spencer|Joe Spencer]] 17:17, 14 October 2007 (CEST)
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| − | :I actually posted this question before listening to your lesson on the topic. I had a few ideas listening to your lesson--I'll elaborate when I have more time. --[[User:RobertC|RobertC]] 17:26, 14 October 2007 (CEST)
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