Talk:2 Ne 30:1-18

Written unto the Gentiles

Matthew, I think you've stumbled on something rather curious here. This phrase (and the passage it hangs on) needs some real attention. Broadly, I think this whole question needs a great deal more attention: what are the roles of Israel, the Jews, and the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon. And, as I have suggested in my exegesis in 3 Nephi, what does all of this have to do with the doctrine of the trinity? I think we ought to dedicate some real time to this question. --Joe Spencer 16:16, 2 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Sounds great. FYI, things have been a bit busy for me lately which is why I haven't done so much on the site. But things should start getting back to more normal in a week or two. --Matthew Faulconer 14:20, 3 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Good deal. I've been having internet troubles, which is why I've been posting less the past few days as well. Hopefully that will be taken care of soon as well. --Joe Spencer 14:59, 3 Oct 2006 (UTC)

In Hebrew, it seems there are a few different words that could be translated as record or writing. One is zkr which has a "remembering" connotation, which seems a very significant word in the Book of Mormon (in both the remembering and records senses). I think this is not the sense being used here because my hunch is that "records" and "remembrance" are used more for the effect that the BOM will have on the latter-day Lamanites reminding them of their forefathers (or, less directly related to the BOM records, perhaps us Ephraimites are supposed to remember the covenant of God with Abraham which we can partake of through our mixed and scattered blood as Israel's blessing at the end of Genesis suggests, or perhaps the remembering has to do with our pre-mortal existence, the veil, etc.). Other Hebrew words that could be translated as writing (e.g. kthb) seem less related to this remembering sense. I think it would be interesting to study how the words writings and records are used in the BOM, esp. by Nephi, to see if there is a consistent difference in usage of what appears (to me at least) to be very synonymous English terms.... --RobertC 20:22, 3 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Who are the Jews (v. 7)?

Verse 3 suggests that Jews are they who come out of Jerusalem. Who does this include? I need to study up on my OT history better, but I thought mainly only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin were in Jerusalem and the other ten tribes went north. Or did this happen after Lehi left Jerusalem? (That is, don't we read somewhere that Lehi is of the tribe of Manasseh—if so, what other tribes were in Jerusalem at the time this "out of Jerusalem" is referring to? If it's referring back to the time of King David, weren't all the tribes basically united then?)

In this "City of David" sense, perhaps Jews here is a generic term for all of Israel (e.g. 1 Ne 13:23). Verse 8 seems parallel with the gathering of "all nations . . . to bring about a restoration of his people upon the earth." Perhaps Jew here even hearkens back to "Abraham the Hebrew" in Gen 14:13. Or maybe it has reference to Jerusalem, but then it seems more directly related to Judah (since the tribe of Judah dwelt in Jerusalem, right?). But then Judah, as the royal line of Israel, may be representing all of the house of Israel.

Anyway, these are some of my questions (many of which betray my own ignorance on all this!) which I'd like to hear others' thoughts on and see worked out more carefully on the commentary pages.... --RobertC 20:10, 3 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Crunching some quick numbers on this, I'm shocked at how big a project it is likely to be (but how exciting that is, I hope I communicate as well): one form of the word "Jew" or another shows up in Nephi's two books 69 times, one form or another of the word "Israel" some 135 times, and one form or another of the word "Gentile" 87 times. From my previous studies (which, of course, I have to revisit and revise completely, I'm sure), I have a clear sense that Nephi has three separate groups he works with, Jews, Gentiles, and Israel. I think he draws a distinction between the Jews and Israel, and I'm pretty sure the distinction is a question of national boundaries (Northern/Southern). There are complications with that issue, but it is a start. I'm going to do some work right now and see what I can't sort out at least. --Joe Spencer 14:02, 4 Oct 2006 (UTC)